Ride Lugged

read or not to read, that is the question. yer call, it might be tedious or you might like it. james, you wont care.

Originally Posted by ridelugs
i hate nashbar. hows that for intolerance. they suck the lifeblood out of local bike shops. nashbar is nothing more than the walmart of the bike world. support your local shop. a sram pc 48 chain is 20 bucks for crying out loud, and it shifts flawlessly. not to mention its well made, stronger than a shimano of a similar price. and its not made in vietnam or singapore.

Wow, that’s a lot of misplaced anger, in my opinion…

Your hated Nashbar often carries the SRAM chains, and sells the PC-58 for about $10 typically Also, the Nashbar-branded chains are actually made KMC (it’s stamped on the links), which makes their chains in Taiwan. SRAM chains are made in Taiwan as well, I believe.

It seems like a vast range of bike parts are made in Taiwan these days, except for very low-end (China) or high-end (USA, Europe, or Japan). Taiwan is a democracy and, in my “freedom loving” opinion, a country and economy very much worth supporting. The main reason they dominate the bike industry is because they do good work at a good price. All the Nashbar metal products I’ve looked at are made in Taiwan; chains, pedals, cables, tires, lights, etc. Their panniers are made in Mexico, I believe, and their water bottles are made here in the USA (and have the Specialized logo stamped into them).

Nashbar certainly takes business away from LBSes everywhere. But they do a LOT more than that. I wouldn’t have nearly as much bike stuff, or nearly as much fun with it, if it weren’t for Nashbar and Performance and the used market. Hell, I might never have gotten into repairing and tinkering with bikes at all, since it would be unaffordable. Nashbar will sell me a wheelset for $100 while the big, well-known LBS in town will tell me they can special-order it for $250. As a bonus, one of their mechanics rolls his eyes at me and makes disparaging comments about how I waste his time asking about low-end junk. Nashbar seems to recognize that people who like to do-it-themselves often don’t have that much money to spend, so instead of stocking Dura Ace and Campy Record, they have lots of 105, LX, XT, Centaur stuff. They also do a really good job of finding generic products to put their name on, I think. They dig up 1″ suspension forks for folks looking to upgrade their aging MTB, JIS headsets, the best red blinkie light I’ve found, good cheap clipless pedals, and some very nice cantilever brakes. (My reviews of some Nashbar-brand products here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=2876112)

So Nashbar may be putting some LBS out of business if they fail to adapt, but it’s ALLOWING a lot more folks to afford a customized bike that they’ll enjoy riding a lot. The big LBS here seems to make all their money on 40-something professionals who bring their Cannondale in on a roof rack and care deeply about the color of their hubs, and that totally leaves me out in the cold. Frankly, I’m a big Nashbar fan I also like Harris Cyclery, which is Sheldon Brown’s shop. Despite the fact that they’re located in Massachusetts, they have excellent prices on a lot of things like wheelsets, and they seem to pick and choose their online products carefully to find the ones that are a good value for DIY types.

to which i responded:

nashbar makes thier money, as does supergo, like this: trek buys 5000 wheelsets from taiwan, knowing they will only use 4000 of them. but 5000 is where they get the break, ie the cheaper price. they then strip the bontrager stickers off, or never have the put on, and call up supergo, who buys the remaining 1000 at OEM pricing, which is way under wholesaler’s wholesale. they then sell the wheelsets for a very affordable price, more or less at wholesale, to the rabid public. this isnt what walmart does. its not quite as evil. walmart forces companies to sell to them at whatever price they dictate and thats that.
nashbar can afford to sell even things like derailluers at mere dollars over cost, because they dont have tons of storefronts. 50 guys can run a huge operation. the sram pc 48 chain costs a bike shop 8.5 to buy, if they buy in bulk, (50) without boxes, so lets see, thats 425 dollars just for one type of chain. thats alot of money in product thats not guarenteed to sell right away. then you have all the other 8 spd chains you have to have at least a few of, the 9 speed chains, the track chains, the bmx chains, the 10 spd chains, and soon, very soon, in chains alone, you have almost 1000 dollars just in chains, lying around, because you have to have them in stock. you have to pay for storage space. all storage space is space not used to sell stuff.
the affordability issue is a real one, but fault does not lie with the local bike shop. they do what they can with what they are given. you said: “I wouldn’t have nearly as much bike stuff, or nearly as much fun with it, if it weren’t for Nashbar and Performance and the used market.” this basically is a statement saying i’m only happy with lots of stuff. thats kind of misguided. or at least a bit glutonous, dont you think? your implying that quantity matters over quality, and that having lots of taiwanese stuff is better than having a few things that work well.
i’m all for custom bikes. thats all i own. i’m all about quality, and i dont even hate taiwan products as much as i should. i love japanese products. (er not new shimano bits) so its not like i am saying screw nashbar cause they sell taiwanese stuff. i’m saying screw nashbar cause if you dont give them your buisness, someone else will, but if you dont give your local shop buisness, no one else might. maybe you only have one local shop. that sucks then. support harris. they are a family owned shop. great. but local shops are run by local people with big stakes on the line. when most shops fold, the owners loose everything. cars, houses, they have to literally hide from creditors to avoid having thier ipods taken. its not wonder they are pissy sometimes. some days they are literally at the poor houses’ door. if they screw up on a bike order, say the rep told them the colour purple was the hit for womens hybrids, they ordered 6, only six! and now they are sitting on 1800 dollars worth of big stuff they cant even push out the door. they would try to sell those for 600, at a 50% margin, while nashbar goes and buys the other ones up, after the maker can sell them, for 150 dollars a piece, and sells them at 250, 50 bucks less than it costs the shop to get them in the first place.
you see, its not a question of adaption. what needs adaptation is the buyers attitude. just like people thrived before the cell fone, people could still enjoy cycling without the internet and mail order catalogues. its a fact.

and then anouther fellow chimed in:

Interesting debate that my need its own thread…

But you guys are arguing the realities of the fabled Al Gore “new economy.” Reality: giants (Nashbar) will exist to satisfy demand as will more thrifty and swift lbs (Harris–god willing! and my lbs). You both are examples of savy consumers each purchasing with clear intent rather than for consumption for its own sake (Walmart). The cycling marketplace it is still a niche thus divided into price category (I don’t own a Lemond or Campy anything but mid market products instead). A logical solution to such a competative market would be to increase participation by increasing the number of cycling consumers…thus the unlucky lbs may close (sucks?…not in all cases!) but other more aggressive, savy and slick lbs (with a website!) will maintain and thrive within a one niche while the huge (Nashbar) may serve to lure the price concious newbie in another.

High road economic development does not really fit into this market because of its size…even nashbar is re “small” (50 employees?= 6-7 decent sized shops?). And while a store may close, most likley it will not close because of larger online retailers but because of the extant local market and the minimal demand of the consumers. (Demand is never “wrong”, only the supply-side responce to it can be!). Remember the number of choices that a retailer has at their disposal and the number of mistakes or incorrect assumptions one can make. It is a shops responsibility to maintain customers; cycling is such a narrow market that we go to the same store, the same wrench guy, the same routes…unless there is a problem.

And remember, while 20 years ago we all could have had this debate…I doubt any or us would be willing to drop the $ on a phone bill, or wait for the local post to deliver a reply. I know that I waited a whole 10 days for a special order (online) part to come in from Cali…so my lbs could finish the work I asked them to do…

Ultimately, consumer choice reflects personal values and both of yours are valid, as are the means to satisfy both sets of demands short of murder or war…apples and oranges. At least we use a minimal amount of petroleum based products…

good stuff, i think. but people say i’m crackers…. wait, theres more!

Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Slim:

You raise some valid points, for the US market, however in many countries customer service is defined as being able to go into the shop, and have a chat with the guy behind the counter, who knows his subject really well, and is able to get the part you need. Modern bike shops have computers and internet connections, because it cuts down on inventory. There are probably 8,196 different chains out there, a shop probably sells 3 - 4 different ones 98% of the time. However if you really need a 5 speed chain, many bike shops can order one, shipped next day air, because the shipping costs are less then the cost of maintaining inventory on something you might sell once in a blue moon. While people can get stuff cheap, so can bike shops. The price difference is the cost of providing service, and many times being able to take a bike to the shop, pointing to a part and saying I need one of these, and the bike shop being able to provide one.

I see the bike market as two things: service and product. The product is not that special, a type of commodity like the hard disk to a computer. Some have better design and thus perform better for its intended use. But the big thing is really service. So the local bike shops should stop trying to make money on a mere commodity and start making money on service.

The mechanic, the bike fitter, the coach, the physiologist, are all part of services. Also important is the manufacturer that brings their product to the distributors like the Nasbars and Performance, or any other mail order Taiwan based entity to the consumer.

I think the consumers are a dynamic bunch with money to spend via baby boomers getting back into the past time they enjoyed as a kid. They’re the ones who buy bikes all tricked out. They’re the ones who go to the 24 hour fitness centers and do spinning. They’re the ones who will buy services.

I agree with both of you, Garfield Cat & Wogsterca. The service element (even in the US too!!!) fits neatly into demand and it is this kind and range of service that is getting bigger. Some people don’t care about the chit chat and will order the part straight away online; however others that value the banter and other useful value a lbs brings (me) pay for that service because it has added value that others may not choose to “add” to their bill–and depending on my ready cash (or not so ready) that is how I make a decision where to purchase, and I don’t think many pepople are alll that different regardless of their location (deal is a deal). And right, like I said before a savy and swift lbs will learn how to construct their busniess model such that they can use technology to maintain a healthy business rather than suffering “standing by wayside” effects and problems of inventory…Harris and my lbs are perfect examples of this.

Garfield birings up a good point…there are lots of people that don’t realize they need bikes just yet…but they will! and many will and many will not care about the lbs–so to stay in the race the lbs must stay fit (create/modify business model). Remember, if you want expert advice from 100 different, knowledeable and articulate if not cranky sometimes experts, where would you go to get these answers in less than an hour while you are at work? Answer: bikeforums . We are all participating in something that could help–but will not–destroy the need for a lbs! The reason I can say “will not” is because of the values that many here hold that include the lbs. I do, Garfield does, Wogsterca, Moxfyre, Rudelugs, etc…but we have also used/use a mechanism that can threaten old cycling (lbs, online shopping/links, face2face interactions, etc) and also strengthen it (advice, race/events and announcements, information in general, etc). As a point, I have used my lbs more because of this forum, others may experience the opposite…

So, Garfield is right, lbs should begin to court these baby boomers and learn to answer questions more affably and also who don’t know or care about the diff between campy and sram (yet!), or have a vested interest in an sport/hobby/fun thing to do sometimes/or the LBS that we do…but these are the people that can make or break a bottom line…and also get more bike lanes painted, help get less cars on the road…

I wonder if this sort of thing is discussed in the “shop owners” forum?…if not it should.

crackers crackers crackers.